Started by a friend (Nanda Kishore)
There are many concepts in BHAGAVAD-GITA and let us try to have some information/discussion on one of them - "varnashrama dharma"
In GITA, two definitions or explanations are given for "varnashrama dharma"
Social divisions:
1) The Brahmanas - The intelligent class directing society by giving guidance and advice to the king or government
2) The ksatriyas - The ksatriyas take the positions of king or politicians and the military
3) The vaisyas - The vaisyas are responsible principally for the production food and the protection of the cows
4) The sudras - The sudras have little intelligence and must therefore be engaged in the service of one of the other three classes
The social body should work as a coordinated unit with different members of the society acting in their respective positions as brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras according to their qualities (Please note that the divisions are made as per qualities and not based on caste)
There are also four spiritual divisions
1) brahmacary - student life
2) grhastha - married life
3) vanaprasta - retired life and
4) sunnyasa - renounced life
Shark(Saarth's nick name) , You can take this forward.
My Response:
Varna:
As rightly pointed out divisions are made as per qualities and not basesd on castes. Later they were made into castes. In Gita Lord Krishna says "Janmana Jayate Sudra Samskarena Jayate Dwijah" -- Every one is Sudra by birth and by quality he displays he may become a dwija. Also he clearly says "Chaturvarna maya srustam" -- I have created only four varnas but it is humans who have created other subcastes and panchama caste.
With in this castes they have made enough subdivisions so that men have sufficient reason rto fight and kill each other. I was just listening to Lyrics of Dashavataram "Raayini Maatram" Song where hero is a Srivaishnava and says he will not bow his head to Lord Shiva. And Veera Shaivites kill him. In Vedas, upanishads and other scriptures it is clearly said that there is only one God. But people divided him and found one another reason to kill each other.
It is a customary argument since ages that only upper castes are allowed to read vedas. This is false and falsity established by humans. Vedas are Swara pradhanas. Every mantra of vedas has a swara attached to it and it has its impact only when swara is followed. Incorrect swara is like insulting Gods and thats the reason why people who cannot correctly pronounce were denied access to vedas. There is a story in Upanishad where a boy named Jaabali who does not know who his father is approaches Gautama Maharshi for learning veda. Gautama asks hm abt his Gotra and Jabali replies that he does not know it as he does not know who his father is. Appreciating his quality of speaking truth despite knowing that speaking truth may not get him admission, Gautama grants him admission and teaches him Veda.
What is it Veda that only some people are denied access to it? Vedas are libraries of knowledge and giving access to knowledge to one who does not deserve it can lead to danger. For example: Ekalvya has learnt Archery on his own. One day when he is practising a dog came barking along the way and this lead to concentration lapse for him. He uses his skill on the poor animal and seals its mouth. Any one learning Archery would be told that his skill should be used only for attaining peace and protecting the state. Ekalavya does not have fundamental qualities of archer and has every chance of misusing his skill. So Drona asks him for his thumb so that he cannot practice archery. It is a different story that we see lots of movies where Drona/Arjuna are made Villians. Drona has done Dharma but it is now interpreted as attrocity of a brahmin on a tribal.
Regrading Ashrama Dharma's I can write only after reading relevant portion in Manu Smriti and Parasara Smriti. Parasara Smriti is more applicable to Kali yuga.
Monday, May 4, 2009
Vaikunta Ekadasi
Today is the auspicious day of Vaikunta Ekadasi. This is the day on which most temple including Tirupati and Bhadrachalam would crowded for getting vaikunta Dwara darshan.
It is also called Mukkoti Ekadasi ie., the day on which 3crore Devatas come to visit Lord Vishnu through uttara vaikunta dwara. Devotees observe fast on this day and spend time reciting Lord's Keerthans.
The significance of Vaikunta Ekadasi can be traced back to the Padma Purana. The Purana indicates that Lord Vishnu took the form of ‘Ekadasi’ female energy to kill demon Muran. Impressed by ‘Ekadasi,’ Lord Vishnu told her that whoever worships him on this day will reach ‘Vaikunta’. Rice is avoided during ekadashi days as it is believed that the demon Mura finds a dwelling in the rice eaten on Ekadasi day.
Fasting and indulging in Lord's Japa on Ekadasi is called Ekadasi Vrata. Noted devotee King Ambareesha observed this Vrata and his story of lesson given by Lord Vishnu to Sage Durvasa is known to every one. (if not I will write in a separate mail) Here is a sloka that tells significance of Ekadasi Vrata
"na GaayathryA para manthra: na Maathu para dhaivatham
na KaasyA: paramam theertham na EkAdasyA : samam vratham"
Meaning:
There is no manthram that is superior to Gaayathri manthram ; there is no dhaivam superior to one's mother;
there is no sanctifying theertham better the Kaasi and there is no vratham that is more sacred than EkAdasi Vratham .
Tit-Bit:
Devatas are said to be mukkoti (3crores)। Will there not be any growth in their population? (if possible explain)
Some Queries of friend
1) All these things must have be formulated to move man closer to GOD. i.e. make him a better human being. But in Kaliyuga, it is not happening.
These things are surely formulated to move man closer to GOD perfect. In Kaliyuga it may not be seen happening and that is exactly the characteristic of Kaliyuga.
In Kruta Yuga (Satya Yuga) people did not know what bad is.
In Treta Yuga people knew what bad is and but never did it.
In Dwapara Yuga people did bad deeds but there are good fellows who constrained them
In Kali Yuga bad becomes norm and good becomes exception. It is surely a rarity to find a perfect man here.
2) Do you really think that a person who commits 10 murders and then performs Ekadasi vratham will reach Vaikunta?
I think so but I cannot show any tangible proof. But there is a clarification demanded here. If a person does 10 murders, he will not attain Vaikunta until he pays for those murders. There are swarga and Naraka defined that give punishments to sins. There will be series of rebirths that might happen giving him scope for undergoing fruit of his papa and there will be cases when papa will be experienced in same life itself.
In a book called Panduranga Mahatyam, Tenali Rama Krishna portrays a character called Nigama Sharma. Brahmin by birth but chandala by nature. He makes his wife and parents suffer. Never takes care of offspring. Also he molests daughter-in-law of a kapu family and starts having illicit affair with her. So in essence he brings down every one attached with him. He pays for the sisn when he loses every one including his wife and kid who are burnt alive infront of his eyes. He then pays for the sins he has done when he is left all alone in a state where there is no food, no senses working. In the end he gets Vaikunta after he reaches holy presence of Lord Pandu Ranga.
Net - Net what I can say is one has to pay for his sins there is no exception. It can be in same birth or series of rebirths. But as we do not have longevity of life that can clearly show whether people are paying for sins, we might think they are leading happy life.
Friend's Response:
>> Net - Net what I can say is one has to pay for his sins there is no exception. It can be in same birth or series of rebirths. But as we do not have longevity of life that can clearly show whether people are paying for sins, we might think they are leading happy life.
This is where my point lies. We just don't seem to understand this. From morning to evening we commit so many sins (physical and mental) and just a customary visit to temple on a particular day will not help. (Today morning I saw around 50 vehicles parked at lord venkatesware temple near my house)
I am not losing faith in these customs. I am losing faith in the concept that these customs will move man closer to GOD in kaliyuga. (Most of us visit temple out of fear and not because of Bhakti)
My Response:
I am not losing faith in these customs. I am losing faith in the concept that these customs will move man closer to GOD in kaliyuga.
Customs can help in big way if they are practiced in right spirit by understanding the rationale behind. But we cannot deny that a portion of blind followers can get some benefit out of it.
My personal opinion is to try and understand heart of the customs and practicing them is a wise gesture. It is unwise to ignore them by stating that they do not add value. It is karma (duty) yoga as first step before going to bhakti/gnana yoga. There will surely be some blessed who might reach gnana directly but for rest of us it falls into same route of Karma --> Gnana --> Bhakti.
(Most of us visit temple out of fear and not because of Bhakti)
We are not (sofar) Paramahamsa to help all those who are not getting benefit out of customs, I can claim to have surpassed my ability if I help myself. If my ability gets extended to help some more people in future I would volunteer to help them. But for now I visit temple only for two reasons.
1. To get some tranquility in my mind and heart and ease any tensions of my mind.
2. I have made a rule to give dakshina of 11 Rs to every priest in my near by temples every week. I was moved by the fact that most of them (especially priests of surrounding Gods in temple) are living in utter poverty. I cannot say that my paltry sum can relieve them of poverty but it is some Aatma samtrupti on my behalf. I took this resolve after my recent visit to Tiruttrini where I have seen priests who are requesting devotees to visit surrounding temples so that they can earn Rs2 as Dakshina.
It is also called Mukkoti Ekadasi ie., the day on which 3crore Devatas come to visit Lord Vishnu through uttara vaikunta dwara. Devotees observe fast on this day and spend time reciting Lord's Keerthans.
The significance of Vaikunta Ekadasi can be traced back to the Padma Purana. The Purana indicates that Lord Vishnu took the form of ‘Ekadasi’ female energy to kill demon Muran. Impressed by ‘Ekadasi,’ Lord Vishnu told her that whoever worships him on this day will reach ‘Vaikunta’. Rice is avoided during ekadashi days as it is believed that the demon Mura finds a dwelling in the rice eaten on Ekadasi day.
Fasting and indulging in Lord's Japa on Ekadasi is called Ekadasi Vrata. Noted devotee King Ambareesha observed this Vrata and his story of lesson given by Lord Vishnu to Sage Durvasa is known to every one. (if not I will write in a separate mail) Here is a sloka that tells significance of Ekadasi Vrata
"na GaayathryA para manthra: na Maathu para dhaivatham
na KaasyA: paramam theertham na EkAdasyA : samam vratham"
Meaning:
There is no manthram that is superior to Gaayathri manthram ; there is no dhaivam superior to one's mother;
there is no sanctifying theertham better the Kaasi and there is no vratham that is more sacred than EkAdasi Vratham .
Tit-Bit:
Devatas are said to be mukkoti (3crores)। Will there not be any growth in their population? (if possible explain)
Some Queries of friend
1) All these things must have be formulated to move man closer to GOD. i.e. make him a better human being. But in Kaliyuga, it is not happening.
These things are surely formulated to move man closer to GOD perfect. In Kaliyuga it may not be seen happening and that is exactly the characteristic of Kaliyuga.
In Kruta Yuga (Satya Yuga) people did not know what bad is.
In Treta Yuga people knew what bad is and but never did it.
In Dwapara Yuga people did bad deeds but there are good fellows who constrained them
In Kali Yuga bad becomes norm and good becomes exception. It is surely a rarity to find a perfect man here.
2) Do you really think that a person who commits 10 murders and then performs Ekadasi vratham will reach Vaikunta?
I think so but I cannot show any tangible proof. But there is a clarification demanded here. If a person does 10 murders, he will not attain Vaikunta until he pays for those murders. There are swarga and Naraka defined that give punishments to sins. There will be series of rebirths that might happen giving him scope for undergoing fruit of his papa and there will be cases when papa will be experienced in same life itself.
In a book called Panduranga Mahatyam, Tenali Rama Krishna portrays a character called Nigama Sharma. Brahmin by birth but chandala by nature. He makes his wife and parents suffer. Never takes care of offspring. Also he molests daughter-in-law of a kapu family and starts having illicit affair with her. So in essence he brings down every one attached with him. He pays for the sisn when he loses every one including his wife and kid who are burnt alive infront of his eyes. He then pays for the sins he has done when he is left all alone in a state where there is no food, no senses working. In the end he gets Vaikunta after he reaches holy presence of Lord Pandu Ranga.
Net - Net what I can say is one has to pay for his sins there is no exception. It can be in same birth or series of rebirths. But as we do not have longevity of life that can clearly show whether people are paying for sins, we might think they are leading happy life.
Friend's Response:
>> Net - Net what I can say is one has to pay for his sins there is no exception. It can be in same birth or series of rebirths. But as we do not have longevity of life that can clearly show whether people are paying for sins, we might think they are leading happy life.
This is where my point lies. We just don't seem to understand this. From morning to evening we commit so many sins (physical and mental) and just a customary visit to temple on a particular day will not help. (Today morning I saw around 50 vehicles parked at lord venkatesware temple near my house)
I am not losing faith in these customs. I am losing faith in the concept that these customs will move man closer to GOD in kaliyuga. (Most of us visit temple out of fear and not because of Bhakti)
My Response:
I am not losing faith in these customs. I am losing faith in the concept that these customs will move man closer to GOD in kaliyuga.
Customs can help in big way if they are practiced in right spirit by understanding the rationale behind. But we cannot deny that a portion of blind followers can get some benefit out of it.
My personal opinion is to try and understand heart of the customs and practicing them is a wise gesture. It is unwise to ignore them by stating that they do not add value. It is karma (duty) yoga as first step before going to bhakti/gnana yoga. There will surely be some blessed who might reach gnana directly but for rest of us it falls into same route of Karma --> Gnana --> Bhakti.
(Most of us visit temple out of fear and not because of Bhakti)
We are not (sofar) Paramahamsa to help all those who are not getting benefit out of customs, I can claim to have surpassed my ability if I help myself. If my ability gets extended to help some more people in future I would volunteer to help them. But for now I visit temple only for two reasons.
1. To get some tranquility in my mind and heart and ease any tensions of my mind.
2. I have made a rule to give dakshina of 11 Rs to every priest in my near by temples every week. I was moved by the fact that most of them (especially priests of surrounding Gods in temple) are living in utter poverty. I cannot say that my paltry sum can relieve them of poverty but it is some Aatma samtrupti on my behalf. I took this resolve after my recent visit to Tiruttrini where I have seen priests who are requesting devotees to visit surrounding temples so that they can earn Rs2 as Dakshina.
What is Daivam and what is Karma
Hinduism's foundation is based on karma siddanta (principle). Almost every scripture of religious importance starting from Vedas to Bhagavad-Gita talks about the Karma siddanta. It is a simple principle how ever it is widely misunderstood.
Karma siddanta says you reap what you sow. If you plant a mango seed you would enjoy mango fruit but not apple fruit. Simple isn't it? In a practical scenario, it says your action(karma) today determines what you face tomorrow. A student who has an exam tomorrow and works hard today, gets good marks tomorrow. A student who does do it, gets less marks. Means day in day out you keep doing karma and enjoy/suffer the karmaphala. (fruit of karma). Heck! what is confusion in it?
Lets try to extend this principle a little further:
Hinduism says the living being keeps encountering series of rebirth's in a circular fashion. Well proof? Here is what Lord Krishna Says in Bhagavad-Gita
Source: Yoga Vasistam -- A lesson taught by Vasista to Lord Rama. Considered a seminal book on philosophy even before Bhagavad-Gita. (I used my interpretation here though)
Karma siddanta says you reap what you sow. If you plant a mango seed you would enjoy mango fruit but not apple fruit. Simple isn't it? In a practical scenario, it says your action(karma) today determines what you face tomorrow. A student who has an exam tomorrow and works hard today, gets good marks tomorrow. A student who does do it, gets less marks. Means day in day out you keep doing karma and enjoy/suffer the karmaphala. (fruit of karma). Heck! what is confusion in it?
Lets try to extend this principle a little further:
Hinduism says the living being keeps encountering series of rebirth's in a circular fashion. Well proof? Here is what Lord Krishna Says in Bhagavad-Gita
| vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya navani grhnati naro ’parani tatha sarirani vihaya jirnany anyani samyati navani dehi "As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." How ever it is not always true that we get human birth. Last birth may be a cockroach or tiger or any thing else. The current life is determined by karma we have done in earlier lives. meaning the karma phala does not end after death, instead it carries forward to next lives. Earlier illustrations are easy to believe as there is a concrete proof we can see with our own eyes, this illustration is a little difficult as the proof cant be seen with senses. (I somehow cant understand why even people who understood mathematical induction principle cant apply same here :-)) Now that we have got the principle lets see a small illustration here. Two students attend same classes, study same time but one is able absorb the gist of education where as the other does not. Here the visible Karma is identically done by the students. What's is the reason why one succeeds and other does not? It is because the previous karma has taken over (from previous life or same life) and the negative karma show impact. Negative karma could be lack of strong foundation of basics. Given this background lets inspect the question. When some one says "daivam karunichindi", it essentially means his earlier karma has started showing its positive impact in his current life. When some one repents stating "Idanta na karma", it simply means his bad karma is taking over his current karma. As opposed to many religious beliefs GOD is not some body who sits and observes each and every person day in day out and try to reward/punish for actions manually. We can say it is an automated program written GOD himself so that his intervention is not required. He merely does the production support. :-) So if every things is determined by the prarabda karma, what is need to work(karma) now? For future lifes as first reason. Secondly previous karma is taking over only if you current karma is not strong enough to nullify. So we need to work even now. |
Source: Yoga Vasistam -- A lesson taught by Vasista to Lord Rama. Considered a seminal book on philosophy even before Bhagavad-Gita. (I used my interpretation here though)
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